Series: Journey Through Revelation (Week 1 of 8)
Dr. Woodrow Kroll
July 8, 2010

Woodrow Kroll: OK, think about this: Rapture. Partial Rapture.

Tami Weissert: Pretrib. Posttrib. Midtrib. What does it all mean?

Woodrow Kroll: Lots of people are asking. We'll sort that out today as we journey through Revelation. Hi, I'm Woodrow Kroll.

Tami Weissert: I'm Tami Weissert.

Woodrow Kroll: And this is Back to the Bible.

Tami Weissert: More terms for the end times today. Wood, these are words used by futurists. In other words, people who view Jesus' second coming as an event in the future.

Woodrow Kroll: Right. Of course anybody can use them but they are a part of the vocabulary of things to come.

Tami Weissert: OK, one of the things we will see today is there are a lot of divisions in the futurist camp.

Woodrow Kroll: Yes, from pretribulationalists to posttribulationalists. Don't forget those in between, the midtribs. The pre-wrath Rapturists.

Tami Weissert: OK, now, why? Why does there have to be so much division. Isn't it enough to know that Jesus is coming again in the future?

Woodrow Kroll: Well, that of course is the one thing we do know for sure. But unfolding the map of the future, the map we call the Book of Revelation, that means encountering these various ways of reading the map. One of them could be right but they can't all be right.

Tami Weissert: We're calling our eight-week study of Revelation, Journey Through Revelation. And with that in mind, you could say that today's and tomorrow's studies create the "base camp" for the rest of the series.

Woodrow Kroll: Yes, they do. Base camp serves a very important role for any expedition. It's a solid starting point. It provides everything you need for your journey. Likewise, the way we view prophecy in Revelation gives us an important starting point. It sets our direction for the rest of this series. So today and tomorrow, I want to detail my view for this exciting book of prophecy.

Tami Weissert: OK, I have to ask: How did you arrive at your view of Revelation.

Woodrow Kroll: Well, the same way you get to Carnegie Hall--practice, practice, practice. Actually, I have had the benefit of being schooled in both sides of this issue. I sat under the influence of many fine professors, men I love and respect deeply. These are professors who hold the preterist view that everything in Revelation is past. I've sat under men who believe strongly in the amillennial view of Scripture. But the more I read the Word, the more facts I tried to piece together, the more I saw the value of the futurist view, specifically the pretribulational premillennial view. It's not the most popular view today, but in my mind, it's still best fits the facts.

Tami Weissert: So bottom line, you're saying don't take your word for it or anyone elses. Take God's Word.

Woodrow Kroll: Exactly. Search your Bible for the answers yourself just like I did.

Tami Weissert: OK, well, let's get right to our study here on Back to the Bible.

Woodrow Kroll: Let me suggest to you some of the beliefs that have come down to us through a number of years with regard to how to understand the future. One of them is called the partial Rapture view. Basically the partial Rapture view is that only spiritual Christians, only spiritual believers who are watching and waiting for the Lord's return, they are alone going to be raptured when the Lord comes back and takes us home to be with Him. If you are not ready, if you are not spiritual, if you are not watching, you have to wait.

Now, what do you wait for? Well, you wait to go through a portion of the Tribulation at least to purify you to get you where you should have been when Christ came back.

Now, here's the problem as I understand it with this view, and by the way, this view is based on interpretations of Scripture, Matthew 24:13. It is based on an interpretation of Luke 21:36, and based on Philippians 3:20, 2 Timothy 4:8. I mean, folks who hold to this view have reasons why they hold to it.

I don't hold to this view, and here is the reasons why I don't: I think the partial Rapture view conditions the privilege of participating in the Rapture on works. It conditions the privilege of being taken to heaven on what you do to stay ready constantly to go to heaven. I think that ignores the sufficiency of Christ's Atonement. As a result, I think it violates the concept of the unity of the Body of Christ.

We are not all as mature as we ought to be. In fact, you have heard me quote Vance Havner (1901-1986) again and again and again. I just love this quote. He said, "How long you have been a Christian only tells how long you have been on the road. It doesn't tell how far you have come". Well, there are lots of Christians who have been on the road a long time; they just haven't come very far. But if only those who have gone a long way on the road to spiritual maturity are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, what does that do to the rest of the Body that is left behind? It's like a dismembered Body. I don't think the partial Rapture view is the correct view.

There are others who say, no, no, no—there is going to be a tribulation, and God is going to send his Son to rapture us at the end of the Tribulation. This is called the posttribulational Rapture view. Basically this says that the Lord will return, He is going to remove His church, but He will do that at the end of the Tribulation period, just before the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus, at the Battle of Armageddon.

Now, this view is based on an interpretation of Scripture, Matthew 13:24-30. But I think this view fails to distinguish between the church's suffering at the hands of man's hostility and the wrath of God that is going to come on this earth that is not a part of man's hostility. This is the wrath of God, and the Bible clearly indicates we are not destined for God's wrath. And as a result of that I think it overlooks the absence of the resurrection event in Revelation 19. So, I think the posttribulational view, while it commends itself to a number of people, probably fails the test of what Scripture is all about. I choose not to align myself with that.

There is another view that says, no, no, no, no—it's not at the end of the Tribulation; it is halfway through the Tribulation. So, we have had the partial Rapture view, we have had the posttribulational view. This is the midtribulational view. Now this is a kind of a clever view. It says that the church will be raptured in the middle of the Tribulation--after the first three and a half years, but before the second three and a half years.

The Tribulation period is seven years long. The first half three and a half years, bad stuff, but really bad stuff happens in the second half. So believing the church saints will not be exposed to God's wrath (that's the second half of the Tribulation) this view says that they will be translated to heaven before the judgments of God that come from the bowls. So basically they will be translated to heaven somewhere in about Revelation 16.

Now, here is what I see as a problem here. The midtribulationist identifies the last trump call of God, 1 Corinthians 15, with the blowing of the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11. But the context is entirely different there. One of them is a call to go up to heaven; the other is a call for judgment upon the earth.

And here is what I think they have completely overlooked. They have overlooked the whole concept of Revelation 15:1 that says divine judgment is now ended. Divine judgment is finished. This has been the period of God's wrath and they are saying there is wrath to come, so the church has to be taken out before it.

But God's wrath has been on the earth for three and a half years already, just not as stringent as it is going to be in the future. Basically, I think the midtribulation view disregards the fact that the trumpets signal various events throughout the future. They kind of lump them all together and they say that when that trumpet is blown of the seven trumpet judgment then God will take up his people to heaven, but we have to go through a little wrath before we get to the great wrath.

That leaves one other futurist view and that is the pretribulational view, the pretribulational Rapture view. This is a view that has been popular for a lot of years but has fallen on hard times in the last few years. Now, granted, this is the view taken by a very popular series of books called the Left Behind series. But it is a view that is sometimes ridiculed and certainly not believed by those who are of reformed theology or those who are the preterist view and those of us who are pretribulationalists have really taken a hit in the head the last number of years. A hit in the head is OK, if, in fact, this is the way the Bible should be interpreted.

I am going to interpret the Bible this way, not because I don't understand the other positions. In fact I was educated in the other position. I am a pretribulationalist, premillennialist today, because I think it best fits the facts, not because that's my training and my background.

Now, a pretribulationalist says the church in its entirety is going to be caught up out of the world before the Tribulation comes, before the 70th week of Daniel, before all these things happen upon the earth. God says, "I have kept you from that hour," and the pretribulationalal view then says this means that Jesus Christ has to come back, and He can come back at any time, take us out before all these events unfold.

Now someone says, "Well what about all those signs?". All those signs relate to events that occur after the Rapture of the church. So what should I look for happening before Jesus comes back? Increased earthquakes, disease, pestilence, the rise of the anti Christ? No, none of those things.

That's why I think it is appropriate to believe in the eminent return of the Lord, that He could come back at any time. In fact, wouldn't it be great if He came back before we finished this series on Revelation?

Tami Weissert: This is Back to the Bible with Bible teacher, Woodrow Kroll. I'm Tami Weissert.

Wood, you just talked about not looking to things like earthquakes and pestilence and disease. So are there things that we should be looking for and, if so, what are they?

Woodrow Kroll: Earthquake, pestilence, disease--these are signs of future but not necessarily the immediate future. They do indicate that we're in the end times, but I do think there are other things that are stronger indicators like the loss of morality in the world for example; or the increase in violence and terrorism; the lack of respect for human life, whether it's the life of an unborn fetus or the life of a young boy killed in a drive-by shooting; the religious tone or should I say the lack of religious tone in the world today--I think all of these are in themselves signs that the end may be near.

Tami Weissert: So if we hold the pretrib view, then we won't experience the things that we're reading about in Revelation, correct?

Woodrow Kroll: Yes, most of the things, that's correct. The Bible promises us in 1Thessalonians 5:9 that we will be kept from the wrath of God, and that wrath is much of what is pictured in the middle chapters of the Book of Revelation. If we're already in heaven with the Lord, we're going to miss out on that kind of judgment--the judgment the Lord pours out on a disobedient planet.

Tami Weissert: All right. So what do we do with this information right now?

Woodrow Kroll: I'd try to be convincing everyone who doesn't know the Lord as Savior the importance of coming to faith in Christ. After all, without the Lord Jesus as Savior, the horrible description of judgment on the earth, that's a certainty. And this is not just some sort of scare tactic. This is the truth. This is a record of what God says will happen in the future.

Tami Weissert: Well, I just want everyone to know that Dr. Kroll has a very helpful study guide available called Revelation: The Glorified Christ. There are several things you'll really appreciate about the study guide. First of all, it includes the full text of Revelation so you have everything you need right in the book. There are 14 studies and each one full of background detail and helpful insights along with questions and suggestions to help you apply what you've learned.

Again it's called Revelation: The Glorified Christ and it's available right now. We're also taking orders for our Journey Through Revelation CD series. So give us a call to ask about both of these products. Then place your order today. Here's our phone number. It's 1-800-759-2425.

How does preaching the Gospel relate to the end time? Stay tuned as Dr. Kroll talks about that here on Back to the Bible.

Woodrow Kroll: Matthew 24:14 says this, "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations and then the end will come".

Now, I am assuming this is a credible source who said this, because it is in red in my Bible, which means these are the words of Jesus. If Jesus says the Gospel will be preached to the ends of the world, all the world will hear the Gospel before the end comes, and the end came in A.D. 70, I wonder how the Native American, the Eskimo, the people of the Far East feel about that, because the Gospel hadn't reached all around the world by A.D. 70.

So are there things yet to come? I think the answer is yes. And you know what? Our generation--now this may not be the generation in which Jesus comes back. I don't know that for sure, but think about our generation. In our generation the Jesus film, for example, has pretty well encompassed the entire globe.

In our generation, who would have ever thought even a few years ago that a guy like Mel Gibson could make a movie and millions of people would flock to see The Passion of the Christ, not only in America and the Western world, but the rest of the world too.

In our generation, who would have ever believed before our generation that I could stand here before you in a study group in Lincoln, Nebraska, and others would join us at home, like you folks at home and you people in your cars. Who would have thought that my voice in Lincoln, Nebraska, could be heard in India, in Africa, in England, in South America--all over the world. This is astounding to me. This was not possible before our generation.

And the Internet--don't get me started! Look at Back to the Bible's 411God cell phone ministry. We reach thousands of people a day.

Let's go to another passage, a corollary passage to this. Luke 21:21. Luke 21:21 has something to say about the future as well. This is what it says: "Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains. Let those who are in the midst of her depart. Let not those who are in the country enter her for these are the days of vengeance and all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days for there will come great distress in the land and wrath upon the people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led away captive to all nations. Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Now, let me stop there because I could be a preterist on the basis of those verses if it weren't for that last clause. Now I could understand all that having taken place in A.D. 70 except this whole business of the times of the Gentiles. The times of the Gentiles did not stop in A.D. 70. In fact, the Gentiles trampled over Jerusalem for generation after generation after generation until the Jewish people took the City of Jerusalem in 1967 in the Six Day War, and I think that's when the times of the Gentiles stopped.

Are the Gentiles still in Jerusalem? Yes, I'm there every year and I'm Gentile. There are Gentiles who live in the City of Jerusalem. But the Gentiles aren't in control of the City of Jerusalem like they were for many hundreds, even thousands of years. The times of the Gentiles, I don't see, as occurring in A.D. 70. I think those are still future events and we may be right in the thick of things right now.

Let me take you to one other passage and then we will close for today. II Peter 3. This is an interesting passage. You are familiar with this, 2 Peter 3, talking again about the future and specifically what's going to happen in the future that relates to this old world today. Second Peter 3:1, "Beloved, [Peter says], I now write to you this second epistle in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way to remember that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior."

Peter says, "Look, I am writing to you for two reasons. I want you to remember what the prophets of the Old Testament said and I want you to remember what the apostles of the New Testament said. Knowing this", he says, "that scoffers will come in the last days walking according to their own lusts and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation. For this they will willfully forget that by the Word of God the heavens of old and the earth standing out of the water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished being flooded with water but the heavens and the earth which now exist are kept in store by the same word reserved for judgment until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men".

Now, I want to be honest here. A preterist could look at that passage and say, "It's done. It's all done. Everything it said in that passage occurred in A.D. 70". I would agree. Everything that it said could have occurred in A.D. 70. I would also say, though, that everything it said in that passage could still be future. I will give you the potential it's maybe past if you will give me the potential it's maybe not past.

Now, here's why I think it's maybe not past. Peter prophesied that there would be people who would deliberately forget that the heavens and the earth (the term defined as "in the days of Noah"--the heavens and the earth; the term defined in Genesis 1:1) the heavens and the earth would remain consistent throughout all generations.

There are people who say that the old heavens represent the old covenant. The new heavens represent the new covenant. As the old heavens are passed away, so did the old covenant pass away. As the new heavens have come, so the new covenant has come. You see where I am going with all this. A preterist says just as we are living under the time of the new covenant we are living under the time of the new heavens. And there is nothing future; it's all now. This is the kingdom of God. This is the new heaven promised in the Book of Revelation.

And I say to you, my prederist friends, I am really disappointed if this is the new heaven. You know, I thought for sure it would be better than this. I thought for sure I wouldn't have to pay taxes when I got to heaven. I thought for sure I wouldn't have to take the dog for a walk when I got there, and I thought for sure all my relatives would love me dearly.

If this is heaven, I am sorely disappointed.

Now, I will give you the fact that the potential is there that these verses all relate to something past. I just ask you to give me the fact that the potential is there they all relate to the future.

Now, tomorrow we are going to talk specifically about the future, and what we can understand from the Book of Revelation that is important to you today. I am going to give you tomorrow five reasons why I am a premillennialist. I am a futurist. I think the best is yet to come. I also think the worst is yet to come. But I trust God enough to know how to make the worst into the best for His people.

Tami Weissert: Interpreting the Book of Revelation. That's our topic today here on Back to the Bible.

Wood, you told us that you're a futurist and I'm with you on that. So here we are--we see things happening around us that seem to indicate that we're moving much closer to Christ's return, but that's been the case for hundreds of years. So how do we stay motivated as we wait?

Woodrow Kroll: Each generation has to believe that, potentially at least, they are the last generation before the coming of Christ. I actually think Paul believed that. He was motivated to live accordingly. Christians of the Reformation period believed that and they lived accordingly. So did people of the 19th and 20th centuries. Here we are in the 21st century and the Lord has not yet returned. So what's different?

The promises of God--they haven't changed. Has the program of God changed? I don't think so. We stay motivated as much by what we don't understand as much as by what we do. We know Christ is returning. Could be today. Could be a hundred years from today. My job is not to speculate on the time of His return but to live my life as if Christ's return will be before the end of the broadcast today.

Tami Weissert: Now before we continue our study today, Wood, let's remind everyone of our Back to the Bible Journey to Oberammergau and the sites of Martin Luther coming up September 14th through the 22nd.

Woodrow Kroll: Yes, that's when we're going to celebrate the once in a decade performance of the Passion Play in Oberammergau, Germany. We'll also visit the sites of Martin Luther, the ones that he made famous, including his birthplace and the church door at Wittenberg where he nailed his 95 theses.

Tami Weissert: We also have another tour coming up in October. This one is our annual Bible conference in Bermuda, our week at Willowbank.

Woodrow Kroll: Ah, yes! Great food, great fellowship in a beautiful Oceanside setting--the Willowbank Resort and Hotel. We hope you'll join us.

Tami Weissert: To find out more, go to backtothebible.org or call us at 1-800-759-2425.

Good ground work for the futurist point of view today, Wood, and tomorrow even more details.

Woodrow Kroll: Yes, we're going to specifically talk about premillennialism tomorrow, pretribulationalism. Is there more to come? You betcha! The Bible has a lot to say about what our future holds for us. We want to get into some of the nitty gritty details here on Back to the Bible.

Thanks so much for dropping by today, and thank you too for your prayers for this ministry and your financial support. Both are very, very important to us. I appreciate that. God bless you. I'm Woodrow Kroll. Have a good and godly day, for of what lasting value is a good day if it's not also a godly day?