Lisa Barry: If you're an older woman, have you ever thought, "How could I possibly mentor a younger woman? Times are different now. Young people don't want to hear about the way we used to do things." You may think that, but you may be wrong. Find out why as Elisabeth Elliot and Donna Otto talk about how a mentoring program was received at Donna's church. That's coming up next on Gateway To Joy.

Elisabeth Elliot: "You are loved with an everlasting love." That's what the Bible says. "And underneath are the everlasting arms." This is your friend Elisabeth Elliot, talking with my friend, Donna Otto, an older woman who is having an increasingly large influence on younger women, as she writes books and travels around and speaks. I'm so glad you were able to squeeze into your schedule coming here to Lincoln, where we are recording this week. Donna, tell us some more.

Donna Otto: Well, I think that question of "When are you the older woman?" is one I'm often asked. It's not chronological age. You said in a number of your books, I believe, and certainly I've heard you say from the platform about your friend who was fifteen and you were nine and what she was to you. Our daughter is 26 and she has been involved with thirteen 12 and 13-year old girls. They think that Anisa set the sun, moon and stars. They are so eager to be with her. She plays with them. She picks them up and drives them places. She plans outings for them and she studies the Word with them. But she particularly models her life and her love for Christ before them.

Not long ago, she got a note in the mail from one of these young girls, who said, "If there were one person in the world I want to grow up and be like, it's you, Anisa." Now as far as I'm concerned, of course she's my daughter and I'm thrilled that her life is exemplifying her love for Christ, but what a wonderful gift to both of them.

One of the experiences that we had in the MENTORS FOR MOTHERS program, which we did provide for churches-it has been my personal challenge to say to women, "Be an older woman" and to say to churches, "Encourage your women to do this." So I have always felt that if I'm going to do that, perhaps I should provide some things that will help them. So the MENTORS FOR MOTHERS material is a tool to help the church provide a vehicle to bring these women together-a mentor, an older woman, and a mother, a young woman who is choosing to be a mother and a wife.

The first year that I taught this material in our local church, I was truly astounded. I was so astounded at what the young woman was asking, what the young woman was learning, how she was being changed and challenged. I thought I had an idea of what she was looking for. But beyond my astonishment for the younger woman, I was stupefied at what the older women were receiving.

One by one, the older women in our congregation came into this meeting place of young women and older women. And one by one, as the year progressed, I heard them say, "I feel useful again. I thought my church had put me out to pasture. I've been looking for a way to do this, but I didn't know how to do it." I had children call me and say, "My mother is alive again. I see her being so blessed by this relationship with the younger women." So I can't say in enough ways how important it is for the younger woman, but by all means, when we please God and are obedient to the Scripture, our lives are enhanced. There is a joy and a peace that is unspeakable.

So these older women, who had given up, who had quit-one woman that comes to my mind was a woman who had refused. She is very competent and in her younger years had been very active in our church in many areas of service. We would go to her and she'd say, "No." "Could you?" "No." Everything we'd ask her to do, she wouldn't do. When this began, I went to her and I said, "Marie, please would you consider? What I'm asking you to do is"-and I filled in the blanks. Basically, loving Jesus and availability to a young woman.

She took a deep sigh. Perhaps because she had turned me down so many other times, she said yes. Five months later, her husband found me and said, "This is a changed woman. My wife, who has always been so faithful to the Lord and to the church, to serve." Of course, for my heart, the local church is such an important vehicle in helping the Body of Christ.

What happens is that the young woman needs to be encouraged. The older woman needs to be encouraged also. She, rightly so, can feel a little arrogant about knocking on the door of someone's heart or life, home, saying, "Here I am. I have the answers to your problems. I'll show you how to cook a meal and clean a house and be a good wife." She hasn't done all of that herself.

My encouragement is 1) We learn so much from other's mistakes and failures and how God walks us through those suffering times. 2) This is not arrogant.

I recently began telling this story, and I have not verified this yet, but someone came to me a few weeks ago and said it was the story that Corrie Ten Boom told. I hope it is, because I loved her so, as all of us have. But who-on the day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on that donkey and when they were waving palm branches and shouting "hosanna" and bringing glory to God, do you think for a moment that the donkey thought that this was about him? It certainly was not.

When I think about what I've been called to do as an older woman, it reduces it to the simple game of "Pin the Tail on the Donkey." Do you remember that game?

Elisabeth Elliot: Very well.

Donna Otto: Put a little blindfold on and they turn you about. The goal is to get the tail placed on the donkey's behind-the right place. And whoever gets the closest to that is the winner.

Elisabeth Elliot: This is a paper donkey that you have posted on the wall.

Donna Otto: A paper donkey posted on the wall. Yes. Well, I think that's what my work is as an older woman. The world has put blindfolds on the next generation. It turns them every which way, but the right way. My job is nothing more than to turn this young woman to the Savior, Jesus, who rides that donkey. Point her in the right direction. I can't teach her anything. I know so little. I can't make her do anything. I should never impose my will. All I can do is keep pointing her to Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit and the Father will do the rest.

Elisabeth Elliot: Well, that's a great illustration. I would never have thought of that. But it makes it very plain as to your position as a teacher of these things. You are a mentor yourself. And the desperate need that women of a certain age feel themselves needed and useful.

My mother-in-law had three lodgers that she was taking care of. She had her sister. She had an old man who lived in an apartment over the garage, and she had his girlfriend, who was living in the house. All three of those people died within two months. It was the first time in my mother-in-law's life that she had not been needed anymore. It just about killed her.

I do think that retirement kills men. Literally, it kills them. They've felt needed desperately, desperately needed, depending on the kind of job they had. But generally speaking, men consider themselves powerful. When suddenly there isn't anyplace to exercise power, they're devastated. Where are older women to exercise power these days? Not in a visible position of authority or high pay, but humbly, quietly, individually, with these younger woman, who are so at sea.

Donna Otto: I said earlier about discipleship or mentoring or older woman, and these terms. But the task is really quite simple. A few years ago, a young woman whom I had been "older womaning" came to my door early in the morning. I did not expect her. The doorbell rang. I went to the door. There she was. She fell into a heap in my arms, just sobbing. Hysterically sobbing. She must have cried hard for ten minutes. Of course, I cried with her. Because she was crying, I began to cry.

Then in a few minutes, she controlled herself enough that she could eke out this story. Her husband had come home and told her last night-they had only been married for three years, "the ideal couple"-her husband had come home and told her that he had had an affair, that he was terribly dreadfully sorry. He confessed his sin. He acknowledged his sin. He was repentant of it and he desperately wanted her to forgive him.

She said to me these words. I will never forget them. Crying, sad, broken-hearted, violated, she said, "I know I should forgive him." Period. Of the few things that I said to her that day, I thought of what Peter said: "Let me remind you of what you already know."

My whole job that day, the only task that God had called me for that day, was to hold this woman, to let her cry, to cry with her, and to remind her of what she already knew-what she told me-"I know I should forgive him." They were her truth, her words. And she did. That is a number of years ago, and I am thrilled to say they are blissfully married, truly blissfully married in the sight of God and have two small children and another one on the way.

Elisabeth Elliot: Did you mention Peter?

Donna Otto: Peter. He says, "Let me remind you of what you already know. Let me just tell you again. You've heard this before. This isn't anything knew. You should forgive." I think sometimes of you, who say, "I've said that before. Donna, I've said that before." But I say to you, Elisabeth, "Say it to me again. I need to know. I am struggling with this area."

I remember once when I phoned you and I was struggling with jealousy. I said, "Oh, it's so ugly. I know what the Scripture says about it, but I still have this jealousy in my heart." Like Peter, you reminded me of what I know. But I needed the reminder, the encouragement, the courage.

Elisabeth Elliot: Line upon line. Line upon line. Precept upon precept. Precept upon precept. Those are the rules, not only for little children, but for all the rest of us. I marvel sometimes at how-what a fool and how slow of heart to believe I am. After all the advantages that I've had, I have to go back to the basics constantly. Day by day, saying, "Lord, teach me. Show me."

I think of my dear Mom Cunningham, one of my spiritual mothers. After we were both widowed, she said, "Oh, Betty dear, you think of all the things you should have done for your husband and the things you shouldn't have done. I said, 'Lord, why didn't you show me?' And He said, 'Because you weren't ready to be shown.'" I just know that there are many women out there listening who are ready to be shown the things that you can so graphically show them in your books and on this program. Thank you for being with me again, Donna Otto.

Donna Otto: Thank you.

Lisa Barry: If you'd like more information on the materials Donna was talking about earlier, you can call us on our toll-free number. The title is MENTORS FOR MOTHERS. It's designed to be a complete curriculum at your church.

If you'd like information on either of Donna's other books, BETWEEN WOMEN OF GOD or THE GENTLE ART OF MENTORING, we can help you with that, too. Our number is 1-800-759-4JOY. That's 1-800-759-4569. Or you can write to us at Gateway To Joy, Box 82500, Lincoln, Nebraska, 68501. Our Internet ministry address is gatewaytojoy.org. Gateway To Joy has been a production of Back to the Bible.

Tomorrow Elisabeth and Donna talk about the older women who mentored them. Until then, this is Lisa Barry. Thanks for listening.