Elisabeth Elliot: Frequently we sin in front of our children. They know it perfectly well. If we smooth it over or act as if we?re perfect, we?re certainly not reinforcing our position of authority over them.

Lisa Barry: How many times have we tried to take control of our children by raising our voices? And if they happen to catch us in some inconsistency in our lives, we almost seem to get all the more upset. Maybe we worry that if we apologize to our children or admit our shortcomings that they?ll use it against us and erode the little control we think we have. Children are so perceptive, aren?t they? Sometimes that makes us feel intimidated and insecure. Well, all this week Elisabeth Elliot has been joined by her longtime friend, Arlita Winston. Today they?ll talk about what happens when we?re vulnerable with our children and whether or not it?s a positive or negative thing. You?ll want to stay tuned for their insightful and practical counsel next on Gateway to Joy.

Elisabeth Elliot: "You are loved with an everlasting love." That?s what the Bible says. "And underneath are the everlasting arms." This is your friend Elisabeth Elliot, talking with my friend, Arlita Winston, about the rearing of children. I?m so glad that you?re with us today in the studio, Arlita.

Arlita Winston: Thank you. It?s a privilege.

Elisabeth Elliot: Well, it?s my privilege to have you. We?ve talked about the fact that nothing is more important in a child?s life?it?s probably the most important aspect of his training?the parental example.

And you?ve told us this very instructive little story about your two-year-old Brad, who angrily and rather defiantly, watching you all the time, tore up one of his storybooks. You very quietly and swiftly took hold of the child, put him on a stool in the middle of the room, put the torn bits of book in his lap, and with steady eye contact and a solemn and quiet tone, you pressed home to him that what he had done was naughty. He had to sit still and meditate on his sins.

When his father Joe, a physician, came home that evening, you told him this story, didn?t you?

Arlita Winston: Yes. He walked into the kitchen and saw Brad perched up on his stool. He looked at me, knowing that was a very uncommon place for Brad to be. He nodded his head to Brad and said, "Well, what?s that all about?" I said, "I?ll tell you later."

So that night after the children were tucked into bed, we were doing the dishes together. I began telling him the episode. Joe immediately said, "Arlita, is he copying me, do you think? Do you know of any way that I have been defiant or rebellious? Because I think we need to look at ourselves and see if they?re copying us." So we spent the next 15 minutes talking about where we were defiant. And was I undercutting Joe, for instance? I needed to look at that. Was he getting an example that he could undercut authority? So this time of reflection, though it wasn?t very long?it served as a reminder to me that I am the best teacher to the child. Whether I teach him good or bad, he is going to learn it.

Elisabeth Elliot: Do you think that a child learns more by what you say or by what you do?

Arlita Winston: Definitely what we do, but often we scream it while we?re doing it, don?t we? He is like a sponge, taking in everything he sees and he hears. He hears the very tone of the voice that I speak to my husband with. If I get away with it, he will, too.

Elisabeth Elliot: What message is a child getting when the mother screams at him?

Arlita Winston: That I?m angry. That I?ve lost total patience. And probably that he doesn?t have too much value, that I don?t cherish him very much.

Elisabeth Elliot: He probably thinks you hate him, too. A little child says, "You don?t love me" or "You never let me have anything." But the way you have described your dealing with this one incident gets across enormously important messages to this child. If you and Joe had discovered that either one of you was acting unkindly or harshly, what would you have done next?

Arlita Winston: Well, I think I did. That evening?that?s why I remember it. I think that I was reminded of a time when I did not take fully seriously something Joe was saying. I did undercut him. I apologized to him straight on the spot. I said, "I don?t know, but I don?t want that to reinforce this kind of defiant behavior." It certainly put me on my guard to be more careful about my attitude.

Elisabeth Elliot: If the child were ten years old, let?s say, and something entirely of a different nature had occurred in which he had been disobedient and you felt that in some way you were at fault, would you feel that you needed to apologize to the child?

Arlita Winston: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Elisabeth Elliot: This doesn?t destroy your authority.

Arlita Winston: Oh, no. Quite the contrary. Yes, I would think it would give a new assurance, because in our confessing we gain a new strength.

Elisabeth Elliot: And you?re gaining the child?s respect, because he recognizes it. Children are very intuitive and also they have real insight into the character of their parents, don?t they? Frequently, we sin in front of our children. They know it perfectly well. If we smooth it over or act as if we?re perfect, try to get across the message to the child that we?re perfect and the child knows we?re not, we?re certainly not reinforcing our position of authority over them. The child needs to know, doesn?t he, that we are all fallible. But I, as a mother, stand under God in authority over that child. Isn?t that right?

Arlita Winston: Yes. And it gives him courage to confess his sins this way. You see, we?re trying to teach him how he is going to be relating to God, too. If he feels that he can come quickly and readily, this is just crucial.

Elisabeth Elliot: Have you ever had a child want to confess his sin to God after you have reprimanded him? Can you think of any incident where that would have happened?

Arlita Winston: We frequently talk to God right after talking about a discipline problem, so that we frequently did do these things in conjunction, if it was a major issue.

Elisabeth Elliot: You and the child would talk to God together.

Arlita Winston: Yes. In fact, I?ve had a child come to me when I was really out of sorts. I think it was Sarah, and she wasn?t but three. She saw me very frustrated and upset about another situation that had nothing to do with the children. She took me by the hand and she said, "Come, Mommy. Let?s kneel down and talk to God about it and it?ll be all right."

Elisabeth Elliot: That?s wonderful. There?s proof of the power of parental example, because of course that?s exactly what she had heard you say. Now sometimes when I?ve spoken on the subject of disciplining children, a young, frustrated, but very earnest mother will come up to me and say, "I?ve done it all wrong. It?s too late. What am I going to do now?" Sometimes I?ve suggested, and you tell me, Arlita, if you think this makes sense or not?I?ve suggested, "Look. You can go home today." Let?s say these children are five or six years old. I?m not talking about a two-year-old. But you can go home and say, "I learned something today. We have been doing this or this or this wrong. I?m sorry that I?ve been doing it wrong, but we are going to start over." Could you give them some help as to how they might start over?

Arlita Winston: Oh, I just think that?s an excellent example, because I?ve had to do that. I?ve had to go to them and say, "I?ve just been doing it completely wrong. Please forgive me. I?m going to ask the Lord now to show me how to do it right." I think it takes them aback and realizes this isn?t quite so easy.

Elisabeth Elliot: Sometimes when I?m visiting Valerie, we?ll talk about the house rules. She always wants my advice. We go over things and I try not to dish out advice, unless it is asked for. But I have an amazing daughter. I suppose she is a very unusual daughter in that she does say, "Mama, please look around. If you see anything that you would like to see changed or if you have any suggestions that will help me, please make them."

One of the things that I suppose every grandmother notices is children?s table manners. Occasionally, I will notice that the children leave their napkin on the table beside their plate and wipe their hands on it back and forth. Or they drop their napkins on the floor and there they stay. They get down from the table and leave and the napkin is still on the floor or on the chair, and it?s not folded up. Just a very little thing like that.

And Valerie will say, "Oh, I?m afraid I haven?t been reinforcing that." So if she makes the child come back and pick up the napkin, the child looks at her as if, "Well, what?s happened here? We got away with it for the last three months." Not that they would say that, but Valerie will just say to them, "I know that I have not been reminding you, but you know and I know where the napkin belongs. Now we are going to do it right."

Anything like that ever happen in your house?

Arlita Winston: Oh, it happened not too long ago, only it was with my granddaughter, Kirsten. It was a Sunday morning and I was taking care of her for three days. We were just having breakfast, ready to leave for church. She did not ask to be excused. I knew that her parents always asked the children?they have to ask to be excused. So I brought her back up and I said, "Is there something you need to ask Grandma?" She just looked at me as if, "No." And I knew she was accustomed to doing it and I thought, "Why in the world would she be challenging me on this simple little thing?" She flatly refused to get up to the table and ask permission to be excused. So I finally just took her upstairs, away from where we were. I said, "Now Kirsten, I want you to think about it. As soon as you?re ready to come and ask, you come down."

Thirty minutes went by. I finally brought her down and said, "Kirsten, are you ready to say it?" "No, I?m not, Grandma." So we went back upstairs. For two hours, she waited. Then she finally came tripping down the stairs and she said, "Well, I guess I?m ready, Grandma. May I please be excused?"

Elisabeth Elliot: So that time it worked, didn?t it? Well, stick with it and be gentle and firm and let the child know that you?re in charge. Well, Arlita has given us some wonderful hints along these lines, and we?re going to hear more from Arlita Winston in the next few days. Thank you for being with us.

Arlita Winston: You?re welcome.

Lisa Barry: You both make it sound so easy, and I guess the encouraging thing is that it is possible to have such victory in parenting. A mother has such an important role to play. We at Gateway to Joy want to be sure we do everything we can do to strengthen and encourage moms everywhere. That?s why we?ve put together another special offer just in time for Mother?s Day. It?s called THE MOTHER?S DAY PACKET.

Here?s what?s in it. First of all, you?ll find this entire two-week series with Arlita Winston with all the practical wisdom in it. Next, we?ve included our limited edition book called GATEWAY TO JOY: REFLECTIONS THAT DRAW US NEARER TO GOD. You?ll also receive a booklet and pamphlets covering the topics of discipline and mothering.

The cost for the entire packet is $30, and that includes shipping and handling. Just ask for THE MOTHER?S DAY PACKET. Here?s our address: Gateway to Joy, Box 82500, Lincoln, Nebraska, 68501. Or call toll-free: 1-800-759-4JOY. Gateway to Joy is a listener-supported production of Back to the Bible.

If you?ve found a lot of practical wisdom from the programs you?ve heard this week, then you?ll want to be sure and tune in tomorrow as Elisabeth and Arlita continue their discussion on effective parenting. Be sure and join us for another Gateway to Joy.