Lisa Barry: If your head is spinning with all of the latest trends in child discipline, then let me invite you to hear some common sense on this program. That seems to be the one thing that so many current philosophies are lacking?common sense! And I can see firsthand how these practices are panning out. Children are out of control and no one knows what to do about it. Today on Gateway to Joy, Elisabeth Elliot and her daughter Valerie Shepard will talk discipline. And I think you?ll find it a breath of fresh air as well as challenging. So whether your children are just beginning to test you or have been at it for 13 years, there?s something for you today. And now here?s Elisabeth Elliot to get us started with today?s program.

Elisabeth Elliot: "You are loved with an everlasting love." That?s what the Bible says. "And underneath are the everlasting arms." This is your friend Elisabeth Elliot, talking again today with my daughter Valerie. We?ve been talking about the discipline of children. I want to read you some modern nonsense on the discipline of children. This is from a man very well known as an expert. His name is John Bradshaw. This is what he says.

"If my daughter can say no to me, she will be able to say no to anyone. If she can say no to me in safety, she would be able to say no to those who crowd her, who violate her boundaries. The possibility that the greatest threat to her daughter?s boundaries is likely to go unrecognized by the daughter and that the child?s first offense against that threat should come in the form of a large ?No? from her mother obviously goes unrecognized by the mother herself. She assumes that the child knows as much as she does."

"When your child first says no to you," advises television child-raising expert John Bradshaw?and this is Bradshaw?s actual words?"When your child says no, this is a moment to celebrate, a time to bring out the party hats. She is establishing limits and boundaries for herself. She is asserting her sense of self. She is saying, ?I am me.?"

"Indeed, she is," as this commentator says after the end of quote from John Bradshaw. "Indeed, she is saying, ?I am me,? and so was the young man when he shot down his mother and stepfather, and then his two little sisters quavering in terror in the back seat of the family car."

Don?t listen to that kind of modern nonsense. We haven?t talked about spanking, and I don?t know whether you want to talk about it or not, Val, but I do want to give Vance Havner?s definition of a spanking. "The posterior application of superior force."

Valerie Shepard: Yes. I?m thinking that we need to say that spanking is taught in the Bible. It is called the rod of correction. But it always must be used with carefulness and with self-control. It says that "Blows that wound cleanse away evil" in Proverbs. And then Proverbs 29:15 says, "The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother." I think of how many people put their child in their rooms and close the door for them to scream and go into a rage.

Elisabeth Elliot: Kick and scream.

Valerie Shepard: To all extremes. And it brings disgrace to the parents to let the child go to that extreme of throwing things, breaking things. But so many people think, "Well, if he is going to throw a fit, he can do it in his own room." But I think that?s actually allowing the child to give vent to his angry feelings and then have no self-control at all. It?s not teaching them to have self-control.

But we started with spanking. I really do believe that one or two controlled whacks, either on the back of the leg or on the palm of the hand, are very good teachings, punishments, for our children, especially younger ones. The younger they are and the quicker and not out of anger, but the more self-controlled you do it, the less you will have to do it as they grow.

If a child is left to himself, that not just means leave the child in a room by himself, but it can also mean left to his own devices and his own whims and his own desires?foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction drives it from him. Far from him, the Bible says. So we as parents actually have to discipline ourselves in order to discipline our children properly. I?m sure many people have heard Dr. Laura. She believes in authority in the home?making sure the parents understand they must be in charge of how their children behave and respond to things. She doesn?t believe in Jesus Christ as we do, but she holds up some high standards for children obeying their parents.

Elisabeth Elliot: She does believe in the Ten Commandments. Somebody recently sent me a little clipping, Val. It showed a very worried-looking mother wanting to know what to do with her child, who did not want to go to bed, did not want to eat what he was supposed to eat, and broke his toys. She was asking a so-called expert, "Well, what shall I do?" Well, this person was an expert, because his answer was "Tell him he must eat what you?ve given him to eat. He must not break his toys. And he must go to bed." She looks at him with astonishment and says, "Will that work?"

Valerie Shepard: And it does work, if you mean what you say. It?s so astonishing to so many parents that you can be in charge and in control of your children. Now of course you?ll have children that will challenge you at every point, and they will keep on trying to push the limits back to what they want to do. But the Mommy and the Daddy have to decide what?s most important that their children do. We have worked at teaching our children not to break things, not to hit each other, to take care of things, to say, "Yes, ma?am" or "Yes, Mama" or "Yes, Daddy" to us. It takes continual perseverance. We are by no means there where we want to be, but our children do understand that we?re the authority in the home.

Elisabeth Elliot: My mother made it perfectly clear to us that there was a little switch over the door in every room in the house. It was just a little switch off the bush in the backyard. It was not something that was going to clobber a child or inflict any real injury, but it sure did sting on our little bare legs. Just a thin switch, maybe 18 inches long.

Now you know, the strange thing that people find very hard to believe is that that switch really didn?t get used very much after we were two or three years old, which means we don?t even remember being switched very much. We had very few spankings, because by the time we were four, we knew perfectly well what our mother meant when she said no. We probably knew it long before that. But we've forgotten the switchings.

The point we?re making again and again is that you cannot start too soon to teach the child that it?s you that?s in charge and not that child. The posterior application of superior force?that?s a good definition of spanking.

Valerie Shepard: And if children are allowed to get their own way, of course as they grow it gets worse and worse. The tempers get worse. The things that they demand get harder and harder for the parents to fulfill. I have one of my favorite quotes that I tell women when I sometimes speak at retreats. It?s "When you get your own way, you nurse a hideous idol called self. But when you give up your own way, you get God." If we teach our children from early on that getting their own way is just going to make them more and more self-centered and selfish, they will learn that giving up their way and saying yes to Mommy and Daddy will help them to be humbler and more obedient to God at an early age.

Elisabeth Elliot: We need to have you read that quotation again. It?s from Janet Erskin Stewart, isn?t it? Read it again, Val.

Valerie Shepard: "When you get your own way, you nurse a hideous idol called self. But when you give up your own way, you get God."

Elisabeth Elliot: And that applies to us adults as well, doesn?t it?

Valerie Shepard: Yes.

Elisabeth Elliot: If we give up our right to ourselves?that is the very first step in the taking up of the cross. We cannot take up the cross until we have first emptied our hands of our right to ourselves. "I want to do what I want to do and nobody is going to tell me what to do and nobody is going to stop me." No. Jesus said, "If you want to be My disciple, you must give up your right to yourself and take up the cross and follow Me."

I think the tragic thing about so many who would like to be Christians, but they?ve never had any discipline in their background?so it?s got to be infinitely more difficult for them to give up their right to themselves, if they?ve never had any training in that. So that?s why we constantly try to emphasize the responsibility of fathers and mothers to raise children for God.

Valerie Shepard: For service. And I think of the verse, "You are not your own. You were bought with a price. Therefore, glorify God in your bodies." And also that we are to live for righteousness, rather than living unto ourselves. If we think we are our own, we?re going to demand our way, our own way, and it makes everybody else miserable when we want our own way and get our own way.

Elisabeth Elliot: If you?ve ever said what I think my mother probably said more than once, "This hurts me worse than it hurts you," of course the child doesn?t believe a word of that?until he becomes a father or a mother. And the truth is, it is hard. That?s why so many people avoid it. It?s hard. You love that child. But it is love that requires discipline.

Valerie Shepard: And it requires perseverance, too, because some children will be so much harder to train than others because they have such a stubborn will.

Elisabeth Elliot: And Val, you know eight times as much about raising children as I do. I don?t think I?ve mentioned the fact in this series that my daughter Val has eight children. The oldest is now 21 as we record this, and the youngest is?

Valerie Shepard: Almost five. In fact, she?ll be five on Monday. I?m so thankful, Mama, that you taught me how to obey. So when I was growing up, I knew that your word meant exactly what you said. I could count on the consequence if I disobeyed. I remember as I got older how I would be brokenhearted if I knew that I had displeased you. So parents, be encouraged that they can start early. And even if they haven?t started early, they can start over with God. The Lord will help and He will honor those who honor Him.

Elisabeth Elliot: One of my favorite verses?one of my life verses?is Isaiah 50:7. "The Lord God will help me. Therefore, shall I not be confounded. Therefore, have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed." And with that, we close today?s program, Val. Thank you so much for being with me again.

Valerie Shepard: You?re welcome.

Lisa Barry: I always enjoy when Valerie comes for a visit because her ideas are so practical. I hope you listening have felt the same way. And as we sign off for today, let me tell you about two things that may be of interest. The first is the book HINTS ON CHILD TRAINING. It?s written by Elisabeth?s great-grandfather and is full of timeless principles for raising children. I would also recommend getting a copy of this series if you would like to hear Valerie?s comments again. In the two tapes, you?ll not only hear about parenting but also about dealing with loss and enjoying hymns. It?s called A VISIT WITH VALERIE

We?d be happy to give you more information on how to purchase either of these resources when you call us toll-free at 1-800-759-4JOY. Or write to Gateway to Joy, Box 82500, Lincoln, Nebraska, 68501. And last but not least, there?s our Web site. That address is gatewaytojoy.org. Today?s program has been a production of Back to the Bible.

Monday Elisabeth will be reading from some of her journals, so I hope you?ll plan to be with us then. This is Lisa Barry, and for all of us here at Gateway to Joy, have a great weekend and God bless you.