Lisa Barry: As an older woman, have any of you ever watched the chaotic life of a young mother and wished you could help in some way? But maybe you don't know that mother very well or you're afraid that your assistance would be unwelcome. Today on Gateway To Joy, Elisabeth Elliot talks with special guest Donna Otto about the gentle art of mentoring. If you've had questions about whether or not you have something to give to a younger woman, then stay tuned, because this program is just for you. Gateway to Joy is coming up next.

Elisabeth Elliot: "You are loved with an everlasting love." That's what the Bible says. "And underneath are the everlasting arms." This is your friend Elisabeth Elliot, talking this week again with my dear friend-I call her "Dotto." That's just a shortened form of her real name, which is Donna Otto. Welcome, Donna.

Donna Otto: Thank you. It's nice to be here again.

Elisabeth Elliot: We've been talking quite a lot about this whole question of older women teaching younger women-a rather daunting command in Titus 2:3-5. And we've discovered, both you and I and many others, I guess, who do similar work, that this is a scary concept for a lot of older women. They think, "Oh, well, I really wouldn't know how to do that." I'm so glad that you've written three books on this subject. Tell us their titles.

Donna Otto: BETWEEN WOMEN OF GOD, which is a book about why we should do this. It's, I hope, inspiring, but its intent is to encourage women to look at the work of being an older woman and to not be afraid of it. The second is called THE GENTLE ART OF MENTORING, and I thought I would share some of those things in the time we have together. The third is MENTORS FOR MOTHERS. That's very specific program material that would help a woman in her church, especially if she were gathering together older women. So I have spent a good part of my time writing and preparing this material.

Elisabeth Elliot: Well, I am certainly glad, because, quite honestly, I felt like a voice crying in the wilderness for a while. I know that I'm not the only voice, but it is a desperately needed concept. So tell us what aspect of these things you're thinking of this week.

Donna Otto: Well, one of the things I say from the platform occasionally is that women are busy aerobicizing, beauticizing and glamorizing their bodies. I think that's true. I think it's a waste of time, because you and I both know what's going to happen to our bodies. We came in, as Job said, naked, and we'll go out as dust. Why is it we are so consumed with how we look?

I think it's bigger than that. I think the issue really is a stewardship issue. It is stewarding my time and my resources-all of my resources, which includes my time and my money, and certainly my body and my mind. The experiences that we have in life cannot be stewarded-cannot be-well, I shouldn't say they can't be, but oftentimes we set them on the back shelf and say, "Well, what good is that? I didn't do well with that. I struggled with submitting to my husband. I erred in raising my child. What good would that do in helping the young woman?" We know how often those are the very things that encourage a young woman, as she is struggling and failing.

So one of the things that I began to receive was letters from women who were saying, "I'm not going to start a program in my church. One, we have too many programs in our church." I couldn't agree more. "Two, I'm not the kind of woman who will organize or facilitate a program in my church. But what I want to do is meet with a young woman. What shall I do? What will I talk about?" There really wasn't anything that we found that was available on the market to buy that you could sit down and say, "Okay, here are some topics."

When I first began to study that passage, three verses in the Book of Titus, which ends with the power punch-we do this so we don't dishonor the Word of God-is very clearly organized to me. There were four sections in those three verses. Shall we read that passage?

Elisabeth Elliot: I think we'd better. So I'll be glad to read it for you. The Apostle Paul is teaching a young pastor named Titus what he should teach. He gives him instructions as to what he is to teach the men. Then he says, "Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands." I think it's very interesting the order in which he puts these things. It's perhaps the most important lesson that is very difficult for most of us women, especially us independent, powerful, argumentative types. Now why are you laughing, Donna?

Donna Otto: You should get off my toes, now!

Elisabeth Elliot: Oh, I thought maybe you were thinking that I might . . .

Donna Otto: Oh, no. I would never say that!

Elisabeth Elliot: You would never accuse me of being one of those? Well, God knows that's what I am. I can still hear my mother saying, "Bets, don't argue with me." I'm going to read that again. "[They] are to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God."

Donna Otto: I read that so many times and the concept of being an older woman and doing these things. I must admit, it is, as you say, daunting to think that I might "teach." But this is not what Paul was talking to Titus about. He is talking about giving it away. I saw this in four separate categories.

There was, first, the woman. She was to be reverent in her behavior. She was not to be a gossip. She was not to be enslaved to too much wine. She should be about the Lord's work. Then there was the marriage. And as you said, the order. First, about herself. Most of this is about who this woman is-being sensible and pure and kind. Her godliness is the most important thing about her.

Then secondly, twice in three verses, he talks about the husband's relationship. "Learn to love your husband." And then, "Be subject to your husband."

And then third, he says, "Learn to love your children."

Then lastly, "To be a keeper of the home."

So for me, with my organized thinking, which it's not naturally organized, but I try to keep it organized, there were four very strong sections. They were myself, my mate, my child and my home. I found it very encouraging that he says, "To learn to love."

Now you've been to many weddings. If you were to say to a blushing bride as she came down the aisle, "Now honey, come on over here. I'm going to teach you how to love this man." I mean, she is so full of love and enthusiasm. How could she love him more? Until she's been married for a short period.

Elisabeth Elliot: 24 hours?

Donna Otto: And learn to love. He knew that it was the older woman, who had learned to love by a decision and a commitment, who was going to be able to teach the younger woman to do this. He also knew that it was the older woman who was going to be able to explain this ongoing submission and subjection. Then learn to love your child.

Elisabeth Elliot: And in both cases, loving your husband and loving your child, to a young woman who hasn't had a whole lot of experience, she would find that very puzzling, because she is madly in love with this man. What mother would not love her child? We can all-we who have been married as much as 24 hours or more-can testify that there's a change that takes place after those solemn vows are taken in the presence of God and these witnesses. Really, quite staggering vows. "For better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, till death us do part." Of course, we don't expect it to be poorer, sickness and whatever else. But those are the things that are going to test the quality of our love.

The Hollywood image of love is a very ephemeral thing, isn't it? It doesn't last at all and it doesn't survive the hard knocks that life is going to deal out. You're going to find out that you live with a sinful man. There isn't anything else to marry. And let's never forget what he lives with!

Donna Otto: Yes, yes. I laugh, because I will never forget-and many things you have said, I probably have forgotten and I'm ashamed to say that-but so much of what you say I remember. But I will never forget you standing on the platform. There were at least five or seven hundred women in the audience. You began to describe this sinner man that many of us lived with. You made a few remarks. With every remark, you could see the audience becoming more enamoured with your remarks about their sinful husbands. They thought, "Yes, she knows and understands."

Then you paused, perfectly, and said, "And remember, he married a sinner, too." There was that hush in the audience, a reminder we all need. But it is the older woman who has lived through 24 hours or longer-many years of the change of a man. If nothing else, I learned to love David, my husband, differently with every decade, with every five years, with every one year of his life. He is a different man than he was when I married him. It is an older woman who says to me, "I know that it is true. I've been through that. He isn't the same man. You are not the same woman."

Then this baby, whom a mother brings home. Yes, her hormones are out of whack and all of those things that go along with the delivery of a child. But she believes she loves this child with all her heart. How could she possibly learn to love this child, until-someone like myself-she begins to see this child acting out. I often say to these mothers, "Well, what are you going to do with this sinner baby?"

I remember the first time I said that to a young woman. It was her first child. She was ashen, Elisabeth, just ashen. I thought, "Oh, I probably could have said that more tactfully." I tend to not be as careful. But I thought, "If we don't understand this sinner child, who has just come home, how can we possibly pray positively that this child will come to know Christ at an early age?" If we believe for a nanosecond that this is anything but a sinner child-and so here is this reminder.

Elisabeth Elliot: And God gives us little barbarians. That's what they are when they're born. We're all rebels. We're born rebels, because we are born in sin. We are conceived in sin. We're born in sin. This is the fallen world we live in. But it's the job of every godly man and woman, every father and mother, to civilize that little savage. That takes old-fashioned discipline, which involves punishment and a lot of other things.

Well, our time is up for today. Thank you, Donna, for being with me today.

Donna Otto: Thank you.

Lisa Barry: Well, that's where mentoring often begins, isn't it? Smack-dab in the middle of where we're living-one woman offering a younger woman a listening ear or a word aptly spoken. If you think that young mothers don't want to hear what older women have to say, it's just not true. Remember what it was like to spend a sleepless night rocking a colicky baby? Then you'll recall just how welcome a piece of advice was then.

Do you still need a nudge, though? Then let me suggest purchasing our Mother's Day packet, because in it you'll find all the important points that have been shared these last two weeks. You get this two-week tape series with Donna Otto, a flip calendar, leaflets and more. The cost is $30, and that includes shipping and handling.

Just send that, along with your request to Gateway To Joy, Box 82500, Lincoln, Nebraska, 68501. Or call toll-free: 1-800-759-4JOY. That's 1-800-759-4569. Our Internet ministry address is gatewaytojoy.org. Gateway To Joy has been a production of Back to the Bible.

Tomorrow Elisabeth and Donna talk more about the areas that need to be discussed between older and younger women right here on Gateway To Joy.