Lisa Barry: All this week Elisabeth Elliot has been centering her talks around a Christmas theme, so today we thought we would set the stage for some intriguing conversation between her and her daughter Val with a dearly loved Christmas carol entitled, "What Child is This?" Part of her conversation today will cover the topic of unwanted pregnancies. Certainly Mary's could be classified as an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy. If we could only see that taking care of a little child is, in essence, taking care of Jesus Himself, for to do it to one of the least-in other words, a child-is to do it unto Christ.

Song: "What Child is This?"

Elisabeth Elliot: "You are loved with an everlasting love." That's what the Bible says. "And underneath are the everlasting arms." This is your friend Elisabeth Elliot, talking today in the studio with my daughter, Valerie Shepard, from California. We've been talking about the meaning of Christmas.

Val has been telling us some of her experiences as the mother of a rather large family. People I think find it very hard to believe, Val, that you are happy to have that many children. Just yesterday we were talking to a man whose wife is pregnant for the first time. She said, "How many of these do you want to have?" I'm sure people-they're just aghast.

But when we think of the response of Mary to a very unexpected pregnancy of a very unusual kind, it is as different from that as night could be from day, isn't it? And in Mary's instant and unreserved acceptance of the motherhood of the Son of Man, she found joy and she sings this song of praise. That word "magnify," that's not one that we use very often, is it? But "my soul doth magnify the Lord," I think describes the fundamental relationship between Mary and her Master.

As one author has said, "To be religious means to be God's thing, consciously and adoringly, my eyes always on the Lord." Mary is such a contrast to Eve. What was Eve's response to the will of God?

Valerie Shepard: Yes. Eve took the-just swallowed hook, line and sinker the lie that Satan told her that she did not have to believe what God said. Yet Mary believed exactly what the angel told her and accepted it gladly.

Elisabeth Elliot: We could put it this way: The rule of Eve's life was "My will be done." The rule of Mary's life was "Thy will be done." We have that choice, too. God presents us daily with the choice. Some of us have made a lifetime commitment to be God's thing-to belong to Him, to be surrendered to Him, and you're one of those women. But there's never a day when we're not presented with an array of choices in which we can either choose Christ or choose ourselves.

Valerie Shepard: That's right. I have something I'd like to read from Fenelon's spiritual letters to women. He is writing about humility. When we choose God's way, it definitely means giving up our own way.

"Nothing but the consciousness of our own weakness can make us indulgent and pitiful to that of others." For example, when I see the need of my children and am willing to do something about it, it has to make me deny myself. "'But how am I first to acquire humility?' you may say. Two things combined will bring that about. You must never separate them. The first is contemplation of the deep gulf whence God's all-powerful hand has drawn you out, and over which He ever holds you so to stay suspended. The second is the presence of that all-penetrating God. It is only in beholding and loving God that we can learn forgetfulness of self. Measure dearly that nothingness of that which has dazzled us and accustom ourselves thankfully to decrease beneath that great majesty which absorbs all things. Love God and you will be humble."

I often have to tell myself in doing little things for my children or for my husband, "Could I do this for Jesus? If I can do it for Jesus, then I must do it for my child." Because I want to love God, I have to show by my actions that I love Him.

Elisabeth Elliot: Well, that certainly reminds me of Matthew 25:40, where Jesus said, "Inasmuch as you've done it for one of the least of these, My brothers, you've done it for Me." It's not easy to remember that all of the time, is it?

Valerie Shepard: No.

Elisabeth Elliot: I remember the time I asked Elisabeth to give a bottle to Evangeline. I think I've probably told this story more than once. But it illustrates the truth of Matthew 25:40. She just rolled her eyes and she said, "Oh, Granny, I think I've given her about a million bottles." And I said, "But if it were the baby Jesus, would that make a difference in how you feel about it?" She shrugged and she rolled her eyes again and she said, "Well, I guess so."

But motherhood really is the end of one life and the beginning of another, isn't it? And you get reminded of that day by day.

Valerie Shepard: Constantly. Although I may not think of it so profoundly, just my attitude can show me. The Lord convicts me if I'm beginning to be resentful. I had a little sign up over my washing machine and dryer that said, "Are my hands clean? Is my heart pure?" Then it also said, "My grace is sufficient for thee."

If I'm doing a load of wash and I'm beginning to be resentful about the amount of wash or just resentful about any little thing that could have happened, then I see that sign and I realize that the Lord always wants my heart to be right before Him.

Elisabeth Elliot: He told the Pharisees that they were concerned about the outside of the cup and it would be I guess one of the occupational hazards of being a mother to be concerned about the dusting and the laundry. You certainly want to have the whitest laundry possible. As you say, the more important question is, "Is my heart clean? Are my hands clean?"

Valerie Shepard: Right. And how am I treating my children? Am I treating them as Jesus would treat them? Am I teaching them to treat each other as Jesus would want them to treat each other?

Elisabeth Elliot: I had occasion just last week to write a letter to a woman who was very upset about the fact that she had found herself pregnant again. I urged her to try to accept this child in exactly the same way that she would if it were Jesus; in exactly the same way that Mary said, "Be it unto me according to thy word." Mary's was not a planned pregnancy. But it's not only in the pregnancy, but as you're pointing out to us, Val, so very practically, in every event of every day to keep before us the fact that the way we treat the child is, in fact, the way we are treating Jesus. Whatever we refuse to do for the child, we're refusing to do for Jesus.

Valerie Shepard: That's right.

Elisabeth Elliot: What kind of treatment would we give Him if He were a little toddler in our home and we knew that He was the Son of God? Well, that's a question that pierces to the very heart of things, doesn't it? But it's a different mentality. It's a different outlook altogether on life. A mother knows the deep experience of pain, of love, of joy, of danger, and of sorrow. In a very profound sense, which probably not very many of us mothers think about very often, but when you do think about it and you think of it in comparison with Mary's experience, we do know in a way, in our own bodies, the mysteries of good and evil in a way that men are not privileged to know. This is one of the great inequalities, isn't it, between us women and you men. We are down at the very center of things and we're shown mysteries.

Well, I'm grateful for motherhood and I know you are, Val. You've made that very plain to us. Thanks for coming.

Valerie Shepard: Thank you.

Elisabeth Elliot: And we'll be back with Val again.

Lisa Barry: What a powerful program. After listening to what Val said, there's a book that comes to mind that may be helpful to anyone who is going through a painful trial right now. The book is called ON ASKING GOD WHY. It helps to remind us where our focus needs to be in times of uncertainty. It's not on circumstances. You'll discover many principles that apply not only to difficult times, but to all times. The cost of the book is $11.

There may also be those of you who would like to get a copy of this one-week series for yourself. If so, you'll need to ask for the tape entitled AWAY IN A MANGER. The Monday through Wednesday programs are all visits with Val, and Thursday and Friday are Elisabeth alone.

Here's the address: Gateway To Joy, Box 82500, Lincoln, Nebraska, 68501. Or call toll-free: 1-800-759-4JOY. That's 1-800-759-4569. Our Internet ministry address is gatewaytojoy.org. Gateway To Joy has been a production of Back to the Bible.

Tomorrow Valerie reads a story called THE FIFTH SPARROW. Find out what that's all about the next time we meet for Gateway To Joy.