Lisa Barry: One of the topics that has always been popular here on Gateway to Joy is child training. Maybe it's because parenting can seem overwhelming at times or possibly we just love our children so much we need assurance that we are doing everything we can to steer them in the right direction. In the studio today to discuss this issue is Elisabeth Elliot and special guest, Nancy Leigh DeMoss. Nancy is the soon-to-be host of Revive Our Hearts, which will begin airing in this timeslot after Gateway to Joy comes to an end on August 31.

Elisabeth, there are so many young mothers out there who don't have a clue about how to raise godly children. Can you give some insight on where they might begin the process?

Elisabeth Elliot: I had a wonderful father and mother and they raised (I think I can honestly say) godly children in as much as there are a whole lot of things that you have to start learning when you are small children and I think we did pretty much learn the things that they agonized over and taught us to do. But the example is the most important thing of all. You know, the children are very keen watchers of what parents do. And any slightest deviation or any slip, a child is going to recognize this and think, "Well, this may be a place I can get away with something or do something without being caught."

We were seldom caught. We were seldom bold enough to go against our parents' wishes about anything. We knew what the rules of the house were. When we got to be teenagers, it was very clear that we had to be home at a certain time. And if we were not home at that time, then there would be consequences. I think our parents were very gentle generally, and very strict at the same time. We knew that what they said, they meant. And they didn't have to say it twice.

Lisa Barry: Is that not true now? Do you think parents nowadays are not calling their children to accountability?

Elisabeth Elliot: Yes I hear an awful lot of young parents who just throw up their hands and say, "Well, they are just kids." Well, what does that mean... "just kids"? Kids can learn. They can learn from day one, practically. I can remember being with Val when her first child was born and it was very clear the first day that that boy was determined to run his parents. He was making a tremendous racket about everything. My brother Tom says that when his son was born he went in and his son was thrusting his fist at heaven in defiance of what his father was about to do.

We had lunch just last Sunday at a military base and there was a family sitting near our table. They had absolutely no control over the children. The kids were racing around. They were going up to the table where the sweets were and helping themselves. The parents were completely occupied with talking to other people, paying no attention. And the attitude always seems to be hunched shoulders and rolled eyes, and "Well, they are just kids." What do you mean, "just kids"?

Lisa Barry: Isn't it interesting we talk about how amazing it is that children can learn the English language. That they learn so much at school and yet sometimes when it comes to obedience to parents, suddenly they can't learn apparently as well as what we have just given them credit for in academics.

Nancy Leigh DeMoss: I think too for parents to realize that the way they handle these issues of authority is teaching their children a view of God. For parents to allow their children to be in control and not to lovingly make the children understand that the parents are the ones who have been given by God this responsibility creates a view of God that means we can run God. Ultimately parents are really the first ones who can and ought to teach children the fear of the Lord, in the sense of a reverential awe.

It was unthinkable growing up in my family to willfully disobey my parents. Our parents also dealt with attitudes. I can remember my dad having quite a conversation with me at one point about my attitude as a teenager toward my mother in a particular instance. I'm so thankful now that they said in effect (this was not harsh, not in any way abusive, but firm and loving, as Elisabeth has said) "This is not how it will be in our home. You cannot have that kind of attitude; you cannot respond in that way."

And that put boundaries. I think that the human heart craves boundaries. Wherever the boundaries are, we are going to push against them; but the human heart needs boundaries because we are born rebels and need to be restrained until the Holy Spirit comes to live within us and provides that internal restraint.

Elisabeth Elliot: When my daughter was training up her smaller children, one of them (I guess Val said two of the children) got them all together and said, "Now if I hear whining, you are going to sit in that chair in the hall." And Christiana who was then about three or four said, "And Mamma, I think that if they whine when they are sitting on the chair, then they need a spanking."

Nancy Leigh DeMoss: So, sometimes the children have the high standard!

Lisa Barry: And don't they enjoy seeing their siblings punished for things, too!

Elisabeth Elliot: Well, they love that!

Nancy Leigh DeMoss: You know, another area related to this whole thing about children developing a heart for God that my parents felt was so important--I would be interested, Elisabeth, in knowing how this took place in your home--but they really believed in the importance of protecting and determining the environment to which your children are exposed.

So there were many aspects of culture around us, even in those days--which I realize there are different issues that we are facing today. But they determined what books we were going to be exposed to, what entertainment we were exposed to (we didn't have a television in our home, we didn't carry a newspaper) and you could think this was a very narrow, legalistic home. To the contrary, there was a lot of activity, a lot of joy, a lot of energy and exchange and dialogue. Amazingly we read and we talked, things that so many families today don't do because they are glued to the television set or going all different directions at the same time. But there was a conscious, determined effort to control what we would be exposed to, believing that children ought to be raised in a "greenhouse," that they are not to be put outside to be thrown to the elements, to the world's philosophies and behaviors.

I don't recall ever hearing (people will perhaps consider this unbelievable), but I don't recall ever hearing a single word of profanity before graduating from high school, maybe later. Parents may be thinking that would be impossible today. I'm just saying there was a lot of wisdom in our parents, I believe, in saying we are going to nurture and protect these little seedlings until they are ready to face what is out there in the world, and do it with conviction and with the fear of the Lord. My parents did allow me to go off to a secular university on the other side of the country when I was in my late teens. I lived with a Christian family, but I was now on my own and could do a lot of things, could have done really what I wanted to do. But my parents knew by that time that there was a sense of the fear of the Lord, that even though they weren't there, that I had a consciousness of the presence of God that was going to take me through those experiences.

Lisa Barry: Getting back to this sheltered home that you thought was so important. When I tell people that I homeschool, one of the objections that they immediately come up with is that I am doing harm to my children by sheltering them from what they call "the real world." You are talking about that protective state at home. Is that really what is happening?

Nancy Leigh DeMoss: Yes, you are sheltering your children from the world that is out there that is not thinking and living God's way. Now the question is, Is that wrong? Well, it all depends on what your objective is for your children. Do you want your children to be like the world's children or great mimics? Do you want them to adopt the world's heart and philosophy?

I see these parents with teenage children throwing up their hands in the air and saying, "My child loves all this awful music, has these wrong friends, has these wrong values, is not committed to moral purity, is into addictive behavior. What can I do?"

And my thinking is, "Now is not the time to be asking that question." Obviously, there can be grace that can restore at whatever point parents come to faith. But from the earliest infancy is the time to create in those children an appetite for that which is holy and righteous and good. The goal is not to equip the children to fit into this world. Your goal for your children, Lisa, I'm sure (as I know Elisabeth's was for Valerie and my parents' goal was for me) was that we would go out into the world to be reflectors of the heart and the spirit of Jesus. Not to be like the world, not to fit into it, not to survive in it but to change it.

Lisa Barry: I know that part of the molding and shaping of children has to do with books that you may expose them to, in addition to the Bible. Elisabeth, can you give me some recommendations for good books to read to children?

Elisabeth Elliot: Well, I would certainly start with Beatrix Potter. We loved the Beatrix Potter stories, every one of them. We had them all memorized. The beautiful watercolors that she did so greatly enhanced those lovely little stories of little creatures that are dressed in clothes. We just loved those. And, of course, the Christopher Robin books, all of those. At Easter time I was with my grandchildren and I asked Theo if he could remember "Hasn't Anybody Seen My Mouse?" I had taught it to him some time ago and sure enough he remembered every line of it. He's now 8 years old. But he loves doing it. I taught him how to use the gestures....

So he does it with the gestures and practically gets the tears rolling down his cheeks. Then, of course there are the Robinson Crusoe books when they get a little bit older.

Missionary biographies, of course, they were very high on our list because so many of them had been in our home. But also my parents strongly encouraged all of us who were considering the mission field (which means all of us) to read biographies. I have a whole shelf of missionary biographies. I encourage young people to get their hands on those.

Lisa Barry: And with that we need to bring today's program to a close. Thanks to Nancy Leigh DeMoss for being our special guest on today's program.

I know many of you will want to get a copy of what you heard today and I'm happy to tell you it's available in a series called, "Passing on a Godly Heritage." For information on how to get a copy of this series for yourself, get in touch with us here. Our toll-free number is 1-800-7594-JOY. You can call any time day or night. 1-800-7594-569. If you prefer to write, our postal address is Gateway to Joy, Box 82500, Lincoln, NE 68501. And as always, you can get lots more information and encouragement from our Web site. Be sure to look us up at gatewaytojoy.org. Gateway to Joy has been a production of Back to the Bible and is supported by the generous gifts of people like you.

Tomorrow Elisabeth and Nancy talk about the joy of being a woman. This is Lisa Barry, thanking you for listening. Be sure to join us again tomorrow for another Gateway to Joy.